I do enjoy most of Talesin speculations, but this one seems to be a stretching at most and an invention at worst. There is nothing that support an "Evil" Titan plans and what we have seen already is just a confirmation of an idea that was planted in Chronicle and confirmed in Shadowlands.The fundamental forces are absolute and working towards their own purpose. They are not "evil" per se, more akin to amoral, and some of those goals are more or less benevolent to the sustained life on Azeroth (and the universe as whole).Now for Iridikron statements to be a proof of anything, we have to remember that he is behaving like the typical villain. He is not fighting for an altruist goal no matter what he is saying. As proof, he implies that he is fighting for the freedom of dragonkind from the Titan's influence, however he does not have any issue to send Fyrak to be corrupted by the shadowflame (and to be a sacriifce, as he knows he will be put down when his maddness becomes critical) as it becomes a pawn in his ultimate goal. So much for a "free of influence" dragons when he knowly let Void corrupt one of his closest "friends".On the flip side, we have seen multiple examples of the Titans being able to be reasoned with, (ie Algalon recognizes that we earn our chance, despite all directives indicating that a regeneration is imperative). I would not go as far as call that "Good", but it shows that Order minions (and one would think their Bosses) would be more inclined to work along with the mortals than in example the Void.All this points towards Iridikron being more proud than righteous, angered that the dragons received the Titan power and having a personal grudge against the Titans, rather than this arising because the Titans have a hidden agenda.Besides, the Bronze Dragons have been protecting the timeline on their own direction from tens of centuries. This would only makes sense if the Titans would have somehow directed them, of which we dont have any proof (if you think the waters of Halls of Infusion has any work on it, i just want to point that there have been countless generations of dragons that never once bathed in the waters as eggs, since the dragons abandoned the Dragon Isles, and still they have keep on deciding on their own will)
What a complete load of bollocks.The "True timeline" exists because we have seen what chaos happens when people meddle around with it, and from a narrative point without a "True timeline" the actual story of the setting entirely unravels and becomes redundant with any future or past writing suddenly not mattering at all due to low effort time travel stupidity. As for the Anti-Titan stupidity the entire thing is dumb, it retcons a ton of lore, makes the Titans malicious for no reason but to add cheap drama. Out of all cosmological forces the Titans are literally the only ones not wanting to see life wiped out; the Titans happily sacrificed themselves to stop Sargeras, something I didn't see the Old Gods doing did you?We're constantly told the Titans applying Order magic to Azeroth was bad... but was it? Before even the Old Gods the Elements were in absolute chaos due to Azeroth's world soul, the Titans seemed more than happy to simply reshape it so the elements had a place to exist and not just wipe them out.This reeks of Californian writing, the contradiction for the sake of contradiction that leads to "shades of grey" stupidity. The Titans being Benevolent, but ultimately big picture beings that we cannot quite fathom was what made them great.
I always hoped Shadowlands was building towards a huge major change to WoW, that the Jailer won and remade the universe. The possibilities of starting over in a new universe with new foundations, heroes, worlds to explore, etc are massive. No longer bound by retcons and timey-wimey "Prime Timeline" stuff a whole new experience could unfold. Can even sprinkle in some throwbacks to the Old Universe. Could've been a World of Warcraft 2 with a new engine. I mean, we have like four different types of WoW experiences now anyway (Retail, Classic, WotLK, Hardcore), what's one more that you could copy a character from Retail Shadowlands to New Universe?But instead we got a disenchanted Arthas and a hint of an even greater evil in the mist. Dragonflight has been pretty good imo, but the New Universe hypothetical will always be a big "What if."Just look at Guild Wars 1 and 2. Yeah it wasn't the smoothest transition at the beginning but GW2 has been pretty stable and populous.
I'm not sure why players are so easily turning against the titans all of a sudden. Sure they have their own goals and such, but is Order really a bad thing? It's not. We exist because of it and Order in a healthy amount is wonderful for living things. Too much chaos just leads to...Black Empire. The titans, for eons in their search for other titans, have done nothing but build worlds, create and defend mortal life, and largely just let things be. Azeroth got the higher crackdown because he had an Old God infestation. If they have a timeline they like then maybe they know more than we do.But nowhere have the titans done anything wrong to us. They're not conquering anyone, nor taking away free will. We've even met them and the Keepers personally and they're quite friendly. Even if they by their Order nature influence things in a certain direction it's still a pretty not bad direction. That's sort of what the universe is. All these forces and beings and people all influencing each other because we're not alone. There's no such thing as being so natural that you're not tied to any of them. The trick is separating which influences are good and which ones are not. Titans are good, demons are bad.The story is going in an interesting direction, but the anti-Titan train is coming from Iridikron and the antagonists. Which for some reason players are latching on to. But why? Iridikron is a lunatic. He's the one who's mad at them, we have no reason to be. There's never been a true act of evil or malice from the titans to our perspective. They may prefer logic and necessity, but that's not the same.
I mean, to be fair, so far the Timeline the Titans pursue have seen us overcome all cosmic threats, have a habitable world despite its natural state, seems better than all the other timelines we've seen. And included the Titans themselves dying. So, so far it doesn't seem all that selfish.Honestly as far as preserving the future they seek goes, I'm actually more concerned about the future the Light envisions. It also perceives one timeline it pursues, where it is victorious. What happens when the future they seek, and the one the Titans seek, no longer align?
I'd love to hear more of Vyranoth's thoughts on why the Titans' influence should be expunged. Between her, Iridikron, and Fyrakk, she's the most reasonable of the still-living Incarnates, so she must have an understandable (if not totally correct) reason to oppose the Titans and their Order magic.
That would be such a stupid idea, considerin it would make any future villian mood. Bad guy appears? Switch timeline! Somethin didnt go as planned? Switch timeline! Invincible didnt drop? Switch timeline!The fact we do have a specific timeline that cannot be meddled with makes it important to deal with problems.
Guys you will note that for a force of Order, it did not choose to preserve the time line of Ulderoth. You will agree that it is quite suspicious.We still don't know what happens when a Titan is born, or even what happens to the inhabitants of the planet concerned.
Ditch the Titans and join the Void Lords and bring Chaos, Destruction, Corruption, and Darkness to both Azeroth and the entire Universe? Oh hell no, I don't think so. No chance, not today, not now, not ever period.
The whole " Titans bad " thing is annoying and feels like it's something Danuser and the writing team actually want people to get on board with so they have future villains for their raids rather then having to create new ones, we already know they're not capable of that via characters like the Jailer who's more of a meme this point within the community, muh thousands of years master plan.
I think the reason why most players these days have such distaste for the Titans is because any particular group that is heavily associated with "order" is often seen as authoritarian, oppressive, and restrictive of anything outside of whatever the "proper" order is.A good example of this in a non-malicious light is to imagine an art gallery where every piece of art has be categorized and sorted down to the very year it was created, what it exactly was made from, who made it, and what specific style it is. Everything has been sorted so effectively and made so orderly that any visitor who knew exactly what they wanted would be able to find it with ease. This is order at it's finest.But what about the artist who creates something new for the gallery? Something that can't be easily put into one specific category nor get an entirely new category for itself (especially if it was inspired by multiple sources)? To the curators of this gallery, your work is just simply unacceptable because it can't fit into a nice little category, and they have many categories it can go in. The sheer audacity to just break rules and do things your own way flies in the very face of what makes art so "great"... So think the curators of The Orderly Gallery.So for the Titans, who very much value their standards, rules, protocols, and categories, we are something of a threat because we don't value those sort of boundaries and restrictions. However, if I had to pick between having to play by the rules or just being allowed pure unbridled freedom with the cost of insanity, I'd probably lean more towards the way of order. The Old Gods and Void tend to run on pure BS and "endless possibilities" that it makes some internet chat rooms and image boards look sane and rational in comparison. Also tentacles, extra eyes and mouths, and speaking with goofy deep voices is just boring and so overplayed these days...But I think the real driving force here is that the people who are mostly telling us the Titans suck are probably some of the "coolest" villains we've had in a while. The Primalists seem to let anyone become shamans (and I wouldn't be surprised if it was some former primalists who help the humans and elves become shamans), which is a big win for the "free will crowd". It also probably helps that the primalist dragons are just BADASS(C) in both their heavily elemental visage forms and their GoT/Skyrim "realistic" elemental infused proto-dragons versus the boring goody-two shoes Titan-infused dragons with their dorky elven/gnome/human visage forms and their dragon forms looking like something in some goofy kids' cartoon or a Skylanders game. It also probably isn't helping that Matt Mercer is providing the voice of Fryakk either; and there's plenty of dudebro Hordies who want to see him burn the new world tree down while chewing up the scenery in the process.All in all, there's probably more than one reason why there's such distaste for the Titans, but these are the two major points that come to mind.
Calling the titans 'evil' may be a stretch but it's pretty old lore that we could end up fighting the titans.During the height of Metzen, we had the naaru refusing to fight the Legion because their only concern was the Old Gods, and we had Algalon moments away from literally killing everything on the planet to start from scratch, on the Titan's orders. He lied to keep us alive.They may not be evil but they're not exactly 'benevolent' either. It's essentially a business relationship. They create and breathe life into constructs to have them do the grunt work of setting a world up to eventually become a Titan, and then they bugger off. We still don't know exactly what happens when Azeroth wakes up - it could kill us all, and I doubt the Titans particularly care unless we're useful to them in some way. Not because they're cruel, but because they're god-level beings that simple don't have the same morality we do. In that sense, knowing what we now know, if their true timeline leads to a bad future for *us*, it'd make sense if we wanted to break free of their plan for the planet - they're not the ones living on it, after all, our characters are. The details are newer but the idea that the titans could be a threat to us isn't.
This all can be made irrelevant with one simple statement...Every villain is the hero of their own story.Oh and BTW, that above applies even to "Heroes of Azeroth", the players. And not just in a fictional storytelling! đŸ˜‰
Everyone in here is falling for the Titan Propaganda."They said it must be the true timeline, so it must be that way"Regardless of what actually happens, yall are kind of falling for it hook line and sinker >.>There is obviously something coming that are going to turn the Titans in to the BBEGThey literally retconned Chronicles as being "Titan Propaganda"
really hoping that as creative director metzen does away with dumb *!@# like this
People forget that without the Titans. Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Vrykul, Tol'vir, Orcs, Ogres, etc. would not exist. Without the Titans Azeroth would have fallen to the Old Gods. The Titans may not be inherently "good" but they're not evil. I hate this new narrative making the titans out to be the bad guys.
i like how bro opened with laplace's demon. thanks bunny senpai anime for teaching me a tiny bit of science
